Midnight's Medical Topic
- AviN4
- Supporter in '21
I got the x-ray images in a higher resolution. It's not clear how much it helps, but I'll share it shortly.
Separately, a question occurred to me. As I understand it, a guinea pig has two kidneys, each with a ureter to the bladder. If only one ureter is blocked with stones, how does this become fatal? Isn't the other kidney sufficient? Or does the kidney with the blocked ureter fail in some way that causes a cascade of problems?
Also, rather than removing the stones from the ureter, what about removing the kidney instead? Is kidney removal just very difficult? Or do (elderly) guinea pigs tend to not survive such surgeries? As I understand it, kidney removal in a healthy human adult is very safe, but of course guinea pigs (especially sick, elderly ones) are not necessarily the same.
Separately, a question occurred to me. As I understand it, a guinea pig has two kidneys, each with a ureter to the bladder. If only one ureter is blocked with stones, how does this become fatal? Isn't the other kidney sufficient? Or does the kidney with the blocked ureter fail in some way that causes a cascade of problems?
Also, rather than removing the stones from the ureter, what about removing the kidney instead? Is kidney removal just very difficult? Or do (elderly) guinea pigs tend to not survive such surgeries? As I understand it, kidney removal in a healthy human adult is very safe, but of course guinea pigs (especially sick, elderly ones) are not necessarily the same.
- AviN4
- Supporter in '21
OK, this is what I have. It's from a DICOM viewer of the original x-ray files. It's definitely higher resolution in the sense that I do not see individual pixel squares when I zoom in. But I think the lack of clarity is in the x-rays themselves. I asked if the x-rays go from film -> EMR or directly into the EMR, and they said the latter. So I don't think we'll get better than this without taking new x-rays. Let me know if you'd like me to zoom out or to email you the DICOM viewer link they shared with me.
- Lynx
- Resist!!!
I believe you that this is the best you can do with what they have taken and provided you with. Agree not conclusive but the lower half does seem to me, especially at the end, to have individual stones in the ureter.
I do not have a veterinary or medical background and can't comment on the possibility of removal of a kidney. It seems likely that one kidney might function poorly and the other do more of the work. I do not recall anyone having surgery to remove a kidney in a guinea pig. This article discusses side effects in humans after removal of a kidney:
https://isuporg.org/kidney-removal-side-effects/
I think these are questions you would have to ask your vet, along with the possibility of stones in the ureter. It may be possible to evaluate the functioning of the other kidney.
I wish I had answers for you.
I do not have a veterinary or medical background and can't comment on the possibility of removal of a kidney. It seems likely that one kidney might function poorly and the other do more of the work. I do not recall anyone having surgery to remove a kidney in a guinea pig. This article discusses side effects in humans after removal of a kidney:
https://isuporg.org/kidney-removal-side-effects/
I think these are questions you would have to ask your vet, along with the possibility of stones in the ureter. It may be possible to evaluate the functioning of the other kidney.
I wish I had answers for you.
- AviN4
- Supporter in '21
Thanks for all the advice. Yes, I'll do some more research and then talk to a vet.
I think my perspective on kidney removal is colored by the fact that I know some people who have made altruistic kidney donations, and in these cases the risks are quite small. This page says death attributable to a living kidney donation is a mere 0.006%!
https://weillcornell.org/services/kidne ... g-donation
But these are young human adults in good health. Perhaps not generalizable to an elderly sick guinea pig. I presume if nobody has brought up kidney removals to treat ureter stones then there's a good reason why.
I think my perspective on kidney removal is colored by the fact that I know some people who have made altruistic kidney donations, and in these cases the risks are quite small. This page says death attributable to a living kidney donation is a mere 0.006%!
https://weillcornell.org/services/kidne ... g-donation
But these are young human adults in good health. Perhaps not generalizable to an elderly sick guinea pig. I presume if nobody has brought up kidney removals to treat ureter stones then there's a good reason why.
- AviN4
- Supporter in '21
I found this thread in which a vet surgically removed a guinea pig's kidney to treat a ureter stone:
https://www.guinealynx.info/forums/view ... =2&t=65394
It does not seem like it was an easy surgery for the guinea pig. The guinea pig died a few months later though the owner believes it was a heart condition.
https://www.guinealynx.info/forums/view ... =2&t=65394
It does not seem like it was an easy surgery for the guinea pig. The guinea pig died a few months later though the owner believes it was a heart condition.
- AviN4
- Supporter in '21
I had a phone consultation with a Dr. Wilson today, a vet surgeon at Center for Avian and Exotics Medicine. Some notes from the call:
- She agreed that from the x-ray, the stones appear to be in Midnight's ureter.
- She said if necessary, she could surgically remove the stones from the ureter, but the prognosis would be worse than stones in the bladder. She did not recommend surgery at this time, but suggested it would be a reasonable option if Midnight starts showing symptoms of kidney failure.
- She said it's possible that all the stones could move to his bladder, in which case they could be surgically removed from his bladder, or they might pass out his urethra.
- She suggested the option to get him another x-ray in a few weeks and see whether the stones have moved.
- She didn't seem convinced that the weight loss was caused by the ureter stones. She said it could be arthritis or just old age. However, I still believe the stones are the most likely cause, given the timing (ureter stones showing up around the same time as the weight loss) and the association between weight loss and other cases of ureter stones on this forum.
- When I asked if I should increase the Metacam dose, she said I could try increasing the Metacam dose of 0.25 mg once per day to 0.25 mg twice per day.
- Palliative care. Try to keep Midnight comfortable with Metacam, treats, etc., and bring him in to be euthanized when he starts showing any significant signs of pain or discomfort. In this case, I would not make any significant efforts to keep his weight up (e.g. Critical Care), and just let him eats what he wants. I'm leaning towards this option.
- Surgery. Get the ureter stones surgically removed immediately or after a longer wait-and-see approach with regard to his weight, other symptoms, tests for kidney function, etc. Given the advice I've read on this forum, as well as his apparent age, I think it's unlikely I'll pursue this path.
- Repeated testing. Bring Midnight in for x-rays every few weeks to see if the stones have moved to his bladder, where they can be surgically removed. Based on what I've read on this forum, stones moving from the ureter to the bladder does not seem likely, let alone all of them. Given Midnight's apparent age, the emotional toll it would likely take on me, the financial costs, and the time I'd need to take off from work, this option does not seem worthwhile to me.
- Pain management. Should I try increasing the Metacam dosage until his weight loss slows down, or only when he shows other signs of pain? Should I try Rimadyl, either now, or at some point? For some context, he still seems to be losing around 1 oz per week, even after 10 days of Metacam, which included an increase in dosage.
- When to bring him in to be euthanized. On the surface, the current symptoms (gradual weight loss, increased water drinking, loss of interest in carrots) does not seem to warrant that yet. He still seems lively and happy. But maybe he's already in significant pain or discomfort and hiding it? Another consideration, albeit a smaller one, is that I don't want Moon to be alone longer than necessary. As much as I love my little guys, I don't think guinea pigs are the best companions for me, and so I don't plan to get another cagemate for Moon.
- Lynx
- Resist!!!
Weight loss, as I mentioned, can also be a sign of pain so I would continue to weigh - and weigh daily right now. I was going to suggest increasing fluids but he is already drinking more.
I think you would also see clear signs if he was experiencing pain.
https://www.guinealynx.info/pain.html
Talishan wrote the guidelines for pain management and I think could give better advice. She stops by occasionally. I will write her tomorrow and see if she can look at your topic.
I am sorry it seems there are stones in the ureters (what I suspected).
I think you would also see clear signs if he was experiencing pain.
https://www.guinealynx.info/pain.html
Talishan wrote the guidelines for pain management and I think could give better advice. She stops by occasionally. I will write her tomorrow and see if she can look at your topic.
I am sorry it seems there are stones in the ureters (what I suspected).
- AviN4
- Supporter in '21
Yes, I've been weighing daily. It's easy enough since that I'm giving him Metacam each day. Incidentally he seems more docile about getting picked up too. Not sure if its old age, a symptom, or just him getting used to it.
Thanks for offering to write to Talishan about pain management. I'll do some more research as well this weekend.
I greatly appreciate your advice that it is likely ureter stones and pointing me to prior cases on it. It may have saved me and Midnight a lot of stress. I could imagine other paths of unnecessary and costly office visits, tests, surgeries, etc.
Thanks for offering to write to Talishan about pain management. I'll do some more research as well this weekend.
I greatly appreciate your advice that it is likely ureter stones and pointing me to prior cases on it. It may have saved me and Midnight a lot of stress. I could imagine other paths of unnecessary and costly office visits, tests, surgeries, etc.
-
- You can quote me
First off -- would that every guinea pig owner be as caring, conscientous, committed and willing to learn as you, Avi. You are a wonderful, wonderful owner.
Pain meds and palliative care are a continuum, just like in humans. Metacam and Rimadyl are NSAIDs, like ibuprofen is to us. (Rimadyl is carprofen; Metacam is meloxicam, which I think is a COX-inhibitor, but I could be remembering wrong on that.) We have used infants' Tylenol successfully at a dose of 1 mg/kg, up to 5 mg/kg.
Next up the chain is Tramadol. This is a mild opiate. If or when Midnight begins to need significant pain management, that's where I'd start. It will need to be compounded by a compounding pharmacy and sent to you; the vet should be familiar with this.
Up from there is buprenorphine, a "real" opiate. Small doses; highly effective, but can really zonk them out and can have an emotionally disturbing effect in some pigs. Not that different from humans, really -- we're all mammals, after all.
Ureter stones, and bladder stones, will in my experience not cause severe pain until or unless they 1) get really, really big or 2) (and much more dangerous) begin to exit the bladder and travel down the urethra. If Midnight starts having discomfort (squealing, crying, hunching his back) while peeing or defecating (or both), and/or if you see blood in the cage (bloody pee), keep a VERY SHARP eye out. The stone(s) can obstruct the urethra, either partially or completely blocking his urethra, making him unable to pee at all. That is an absolute emergency, and he would need either emergency surgery to remove the stone or euthanasia. It is horribly painful and again, an absolute emergency.
All that said, hopefully that won't happen. I read your whole thread. Midnight is pretty old. I'm hopeful he has a while left with you and Moon, with pain management and good supportive care. Good pain management will help him eat more, and slow (but probably not reverse) his weight loss. If the stone(s) just stay in his bladder, they will make him achy/feel mildly cruddy but not unmanageable and not life-threatening.
As far as euthanasia goes -- this may sound weird but you will know. You will know when to continue to treat him, and when to help him over. The rule at our house is if they are still active, bright, responsive, eating and engaged in their surroundings -- even with some pain and 'bad days' -- we keep going. You will know when it's time. He will let you know.
In the meantime -- watch out for any blood in the cage, and ask about Tramadol. Tramadol can be combined with Metacam and/or Tylenol iirc; double-check that with the vet.
Very, very best wishes and blessings to Midnight, Moon and you. You're doing a magnificent job. Keep going.
Pain meds and palliative care are a continuum, just like in humans. Metacam and Rimadyl are NSAIDs, like ibuprofen is to us. (Rimadyl is carprofen; Metacam is meloxicam, which I think is a COX-inhibitor, but I could be remembering wrong on that.) We have used infants' Tylenol successfully at a dose of 1 mg/kg, up to 5 mg/kg.
Next up the chain is Tramadol. This is a mild opiate. If or when Midnight begins to need significant pain management, that's where I'd start. It will need to be compounded by a compounding pharmacy and sent to you; the vet should be familiar with this.
Up from there is buprenorphine, a "real" opiate. Small doses; highly effective, but can really zonk them out and can have an emotionally disturbing effect in some pigs. Not that different from humans, really -- we're all mammals, after all.
Ureter stones, and bladder stones, will in my experience not cause severe pain until or unless they 1) get really, really big or 2) (and much more dangerous) begin to exit the bladder and travel down the urethra. If Midnight starts having discomfort (squealing, crying, hunching his back) while peeing or defecating (or both), and/or if you see blood in the cage (bloody pee), keep a VERY SHARP eye out. The stone(s) can obstruct the urethra, either partially or completely blocking his urethra, making him unable to pee at all. That is an absolute emergency, and he would need either emergency surgery to remove the stone or euthanasia. It is horribly painful and again, an absolute emergency.
All that said, hopefully that won't happen. I read your whole thread. Midnight is pretty old. I'm hopeful he has a while left with you and Moon, with pain management and good supportive care. Good pain management will help him eat more, and slow (but probably not reverse) his weight loss. If the stone(s) just stay in his bladder, they will make him achy/feel mildly cruddy but not unmanageable and not life-threatening.
As far as euthanasia goes -- this may sound weird but you will know. You will know when to continue to treat him, and when to help him over. The rule at our house is if they are still active, bright, responsive, eating and engaged in their surroundings -- even with some pain and 'bad days' -- we keep going. You will know when it's time. He will let you know.
In the meantime -- watch out for any blood in the cage, and ask about Tramadol. Tramadol can be combined with Metacam and/or Tylenol iirc; double-check that with the vet.
Very, very best wishes and blessings to Midnight, Moon and you. You're doing a magnificent job. Keep going.
- Lynx
- Resist!!!
So glad you were able to stop by, Talishan. You have a way of explaining things that is thorough and knowledgeable (have had many guinea pigs).
Somewhere I may have mentioned possibly offering moistened balls of critical care to help supplement diet. If Midnight is fond of critical care and still actively eating, a little now and again may help him maintain weight until you start seeing clear signs of pain or blood.
Somewhere I may have mentioned possibly offering moistened balls of critical care to help supplement diet. If Midnight is fond of critical care and still actively eating, a little now and again may help him maintain weight until you start seeing clear signs of pain or blood.