I adopted Button in March and he's seen the vet three times for his labored breathing. It has never improved, even though his activity level has remained good all along.
He is housed on fleece blankets that are washed in hot water and no scented anything. I thought maybe it was a veggie allergy because he seemed to react to bell pepper, so that stopped but really it made no difference. I've gone through several boxes of KMS Hayloft timothy, orchard grass and oat hay and one Small Pet Select timothy hay. No difference.
After his first vet visit he got a round of Baytril that did not improve his breathing. His weight has remained mostly stable (100g up or down), but he always struggles to breathe and his right eye is sunken. I'm taking him to the vet again tomorrow morning and have a list of treatment suggestions I've gathered from this site. However, I know this vet will refuse all of them. I've asked them to anesthetize Button to scope his nose, but any request for heart treatment is going to be denied. I also doubt he will agree to nebulizing gentamycin or baytril/doxycycline, or doing pulsed antibiotics or furosemide.
I feel so heartsick for the months Button has struggled to take every single breath so I need ammo here, please. Can anyone cite more than anecdotal successes with the meds mentioned?
I'm afraid the links aren't viewable on the site and need to be downloaded. I'll figure out a better way tomorrow. Meanwhile... https://app.box.com/s/z2v0f9zwtyi1jcfo4uqkqvm6zjhp5qji
Video 3 is the best for hearing his breathing and seeing his sides move to get a breath.
https://app.box.com/s/uzsd5mjwto4v73ikde9muk7o8wtir10c
Video 4 is best for hearing him while he's eating. https://app.box.com/s/txbr5udcp2uydx852kfndcz428sbhpe9
Video 1 shows how hard his sides move when he breathes (the chattering is because I pointed a phone at him instead of giving him the veggies he expected). https://app.box.com/s/23fgv1ct8jock2eg55nj8ebid4wyj7s5
Video 2 shows his sunken eye. https://app.box.com/s/smmp2sol2egun640l1s9t8enyo3bb2sz
Button's breathing
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Sef
- I dissent.
Do you have an exotics vet? I think Dr. Burgess is in your area, correct? If your current vet won't work with you to either diagnose or treat what's going on with him, it sounds like it's time for a new vet.
Dental issues/sinus and heart are the things I would want to definitively rule out, if it's not a URI. Sunken eye could be something going on with his teeth, although it can also be a sign of dehydration (but I'd generally expect it to be noticeable both eyes).
It sounds like you have already read about some of these issues on the GL Medical pages, but just in case:
https://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html
https://www.guinealynx.info/uri.html
https://www.guinealynx.info/teeth.html
Hopefully others will chime in on any other possibilities.
I'm sorry that you and Button are dealing with this.
Dental issues/sinus and heart are the things I would want to definitively rule out, if it's not a URI. Sunken eye could be something going on with his teeth, although it can also be a sign of dehydration (but I'd generally expect it to be noticeable both eyes).
It sounds like you have already read about some of these issues on the GL Medical pages, but just in case:
https://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html
https://www.guinealynx.info/uri.html
https://www.guinealynx.info/teeth.html
Hopefully others will chime in on any other possibilities.
I'm sorry that you and Button are dealing with this.
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
He is an awfully cute guy! Has he ever had any xrays to look for misshapen/obstructed air passage ways or evidence of an enlarged heart? (the heart page does have some indication of what an enlarged heart might look like). An xray might explain the sunken eye.
Since two vets are listed on the heart page, perhaps your vet could consult with one of them if the xrays seem to indicate an enlarged heart? Do any of the vets you have available belong to VIN.com? They might be able to give other avenues to look at.
He does seem to have quite labored breathing. What is he like when sleeping? The same? Does he lack energy or show any of the other signs a heart could be an issue (there are a list of signs on the heart page sef linked to)?
Since two vets are listed on the heart page, perhaps your vet could consult with one of them if the xrays seem to indicate an enlarged heart? Do any of the vets you have available belong to VIN.com? They might be able to give other avenues to look at.
He does seem to have quite labored breathing. What is he like when sleeping? The same? Does he lack energy or show any of the other signs a heart could be an issue (there are a list of signs on the heart page sef linked to)?
Thank you both (Hi Lynx!),
It's Dr. Burgess I've been going to for decades now. He's a stubborn guy! Another excellent exotics vet, Dr. Surrency, has plans in the works to move her office closer to me so I'm really, really looking forward to having options. She is more open to trying new treatments, but her current location is prohibitively far away for me.
They did take an xray of his chest and didn't see anything noteworthy about his lungs or heart (this was in April, I think). He said at the time that they can't get a good film of a head because of the bone structure.
He has taken a look at Button's teeth while he's awake, with a light probe, and saw nothing. He's able to eat normally (or he would've lost a whole lot of weight by now), but I agree that teeth or a problem on the right side in that area could well be the problem.
Button is mostly quiet while sleeping and resting. Activity and eating make it much worse. His activity level is really good, as it should be for a young boar, and better than it should be for someone who can't breathe!
I didn't know about VIN.com and it looks really great. I expect Dr. Burgess is aware of it, but like I said: He's not open to alternative ideas.
I wrote a small novel on the back of the drop-off sheet this morning with all of the things I've read here that might help. It's so distressing to be nearly certain that he will veto all of them. I will say, I'm not going to settle for the "I don't know so we're not going to try anything" story this time. I need something! Not trying is not an option.
It's Dr. Burgess I've been going to for decades now. He's a stubborn guy! Another excellent exotics vet, Dr. Surrency, has plans in the works to move her office closer to me so I'm really, really looking forward to having options. She is more open to trying new treatments, but her current location is prohibitively far away for me.
They did take an xray of his chest and didn't see anything noteworthy about his lungs or heart (this was in April, I think). He said at the time that they can't get a good film of a head because of the bone structure.
He has taken a look at Button's teeth while he's awake, with a light probe, and saw nothing. He's able to eat normally (or he would've lost a whole lot of weight by now), but I agree that teeth or a problem on the right side in that area could well be the problem.
Button is mostly quiet while sleeping and resting. Activity and eating make it much worse. His activity level is really good, as it should be for a young boar, and better than it should be for someone who can't breathe!
I didn't know about VIN.com and it looks really great. I expect Dr. Burgess is aware of it, but like I said: He's not open to alternative ideas.
I wrote a small novel on the back of the drop-off sheet this morning with all of the things I've read here that might help. It's so distressing to be nearly certain that he will veto all of them. I will say, I'm not going to settle for the "I don't know so we're not going to try anything" story this time. I need something! Not trying is not an option.
Here are previewable videos. I do appreciate everyone's suggestions on this.
Video 1: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/flx13ksnc813zb ... xmi4hxh4d8
Video 2: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/mim5nvfoblydoo ... tfg34j2b7i
Video 3: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/v5yjo2x2wdb78n ... fnrc3en314
Video 4: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/7vnmjmh90bnpwf ... 6wdvpmcmuz
Video 1: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/flx13ksnc813zb ... xmi4hxh4d8
Video 2: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/mim5nvfoblydoo ... tfg34j2b7i
Video 3: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/v5yjo2x2wdb78n ... fnrc3en314
Video 4: https://tvapdx.box.com/s/7vnmjmh90bnpwf ... 6wdvpmcmuz
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
I guess I would take the approach of asking for a list of what he thinks may be causing this. What the treatment for his theory would be and when one would know the theory was wrong because the treatment had no effect. Get him to acknowledge other theories. They can be less likely theories - but after his ideas have failed, one would think he could try to treat based on another theory.
I'm thinking his eye isn't so much sunken but being overwhelmed by fluid. He has Pea Eye. I would have him on Lasix. If the Pea Eye disappears you'll know it's excess fluid building up. His breathing and sounds he makes and how you describe his activity level all say heart to me.
Do you know any humans on lasix? Same med for pigs.
Do you know any humans on lasix? Same med for pigs.
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Sef
- I dissent.
Yes, I see the Pea Eye, now. I couldn't view the earlier videos, for some reason.
https://www.guinealynx.info/eyes.html#pea
Does he make that sound fairly consistently (other than when resting), or just occasionally?
https://www.guinealynx.info/eyes.html#pea
Does he make that sound fairly consistently (other than when resting), or just occasionally?
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Sef
- I dissent.
That's kind of what I was thinking, Lynx. Heart is a definite possibility, but we did have a male a few years ago who had a narrow nasal passage and he very often made that same noise. He was otherwise very active, ate well, etc. Did not have pea eye, though, which could be another heart sign or totally unrelated.
I will never understand why Dr. Burgess refuses to believe anything is heart related. I guess I need illicit drugs to try to just prove to him that yes! It's heart-related!
Dr. Burgess did talk to me for over 20 minutes about possibilities. We've already tried Baytril and SMZ in the past with no change. At that time he basically did a doctor shrug. It was just after I'd spent thousands of dollars on three pigs who rapidly died after intensive attempts to save them. Maybe it was bad timing for Button that I didn't do a deep dive into my bank account to try anything for him. If he'd started acting different or lethargic or losing weight I'd have jumped on it. His change in breathing caused me to try again.
So... the doc thinks:
-- It is not teeth because he's not drooling, he is eating normally, he has no nasal discharge.
--He ruled out URI or something lodged in there because no sneezing, no lack of appetite, no running nose or weirdness in the eyes (except yes, the pea eye).
-- He doesn't have a scope that will look up the miniature nostrils of a guinea pig to see if there is a polyp in the passages and if he found one he doesn't have the tools to safely remove it.
-- He does not think it's heart or lungs.
-- We talked about getting an xray of his head, which requires sedation and tipping the pig on his back with his mouth wide open. He was concerned about that with a pig that's having trouble breathing.
--As opposed to the two previous times where he said it was in the nasal area, this time he absolutely heard it exactly at the larynx area, not above or below. He describe laryngeal paralysis in dogs and how they help them surgically but that it won't work with pigs. He said there's no straight shot to the larynx in pigs. It's an L-shaped entrance (long mouth that bends down to the larynx) so the easy way won't work. He said you can go in from the side, but it's risky. He also said they have scopes with the ability to clip tissue, like a potential polyp, but if it bleeds you can't stop it.
--He said if they did that and damaged the nerves the pig would not be able to close its larynx in order to swallow food and liquid.
--He said it's possible to do ultrasound for under $500 and that they have a mobile tech who is very good with small animals and would check on that for me.
--He said it would be great if the "cillin" family of drugs didn't kill guinea pigs but it does so it rules out stuff that might be just the thing.
--Button and my other pigs are already getting twice yearly bordatella shots so if it is that, there's not much that can be done.
--Cysts in the throat area are very rare.
--We talked about the various medicine families we could try (Baytril vs Gentamycin, etc.) and by then my eyes were glazing over and he was talking even faster than normal.
SO... I went home with a nebulizer formula of baytril/albuterol/saline solution to use 2x daily along with metcam to try to reduce swelling. He said if Button shows signs of improvement in a couple of days it seems likely it's a stubborn infection that the chloramphenicol he prescribed may help. If he does not, it's structural and maybe the ultrasound person can shed more light on it.
What I expect is everyone here with different veterinarians will tell me: IT"S HEART. Uh huh.
Exotics veterinarians are really precious. Their suicide rate is one of the highest. They have incredible education debt, and far worse is the emotional toll of people. They go from an idiot who just doesn't care about their animal, to end of life euthanizations, to happy first check-ups. I'm not going to criticize my veterinarian when he's actually pretty awesome.
He's done amazing things for me and my pigs and his staff are superstars. I really, really wish there were published FACTS I could bring to him that say "This clearly indicates a heart problem" but I don't have anything.
Dr. Burgess did talk to me for over 20 minutes about possibilities. We've already tried Baytril and SMZ in the past with no change. At that time he basically did a doctor shrug. It was just after I'd spent thousands of dollars on three pigs who rapidly died after intensive attempts to save them. Maybe it was bad timing for Button that I didn't do a deep dive into my bank account to try anything for him. If he'd started acting different or lethargic or losing weight I'd have jumped on it. His change in breathing caused me to try again.
So... the doc thinks:
-- It is not teeth because he's not drooling, he is eating normally, he has no nasal discharge.
--He ruled out URI or something lodged in there because no sneezing, no lack of appetite, no running nose or weirdness in the eyes (except yes, the pea eye).
-- He doesn't have a scope that will look up the miniature nostrils of a guinea pig to see if there is a polyp in the passages and if he found one he doesn't have the tools to safely remove it.
-- He does not think it's heart or lungs.
-- We talked about getting an xray of his head, which requires sedation and tipping the pig on his back with his mouth wide open. He was concerned about that with a pig that's having trouble breathing.
--As opposed to the two previous times where he said it was in the nasal area, this time he absolutely heard it exactly at the larynx area, not above or below. He describe laryngeal paralysis in dogs and how they help them surgically but that it won't work with pigs. He said there's no straight shot to the larynx in pigs. It's an L-shaped entrance (long mouth that bends down to the larynx) so the easy way won't work. He said you can go in from the side, but it's risky. He also said they have scopes with the ability to clip tissue, like a potential polyp, but if it bleeds you can't stop it.
--He said if they did that and damaged the nerves the pig would not be able to close its larynx in order to swallow food and liquid.
--He said it's possible to do ultrasound for under $500 and that they have a mobile tech who is very good with small animals and would check on that for me.
--He said it would be great if the "cillin" family of drugs didn't kill guinea pigs but it does so it rules out stuff that might be just the thing.
--Button and my other pigs are already getting twice yearly bordatella shots so if it is that, there's not much that can be done.
--Cysts in the throat area are very rare.
--We talked about the various medicine families we could try (Baytril vs Gentamycin, etc.) and by then my eyes were glazing over and he was talking even faster than normal.
SO... I went home with a nebulizer formula of baytril/albuterol/saline solution to use 2x daily along with metcam to try to reduce swelling. He said if Button shows signs of improvement in a couple of days it seems likely it's a stubborn infection that the chloramphenicol he prescribed may help. If he does not, it's structural and maybe the ultrasound person can shed more light on it.
What I expect is everyone here with different veterinarians will tell me: IT"S HEART. Uh huh.
Exotics veterinarians are really precious. Their suicide rate is one of the highest. They have incredible education debt, and far worse is the emotional toll of people. They go from an idiot who just doesn't care about their animal, to end of life euthanizations, to happy first check-ups. I'm not going to criticize my veterinarian when he's actually pretty awesome.
He's done amazing things for me and my pigs and his staff are superstars. I really, really wish there were published FACTS I could bring to him that say "This clearly indicates a heart problem" but I don't have anything.
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