Non-emergency poo question and Lumps success story.

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TheIrishScion

Post   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:05 am


Hi folks, first post, sorry it's going to be a bit long. On the minus side it involves a PetSmart purchase, on the plus side it includes a Strangles / Cervical Lymphadenitis / Lumps success story.

So, circumstances; 2 healthy pair-bonded sows already in family (Rose & Gizmo), ~14 months old, both bought together from PetSmart (before I knew that one mustn't buy GPs from PetSmart, I last had guinea pigs ~25 years ago on a farm in the wilds of rural Ireland, the rules were different, please don't hurt me! Not in the face! Not in the FACE!!!)

2 months ago (4/6/15) and Beloved has just finished her radiation treatment earlier in the week (thyroid cancer, she's young, it was caught super-early, she's expected to make a full and permanent recovery, thanks for your concern) and I get a phone call from her saying that there's a special little guinea pig at PetSmart where she was picking up dog food or something. My heart sinks because I now know the Don't Buy From Pet Stores rule, as does she, but I don't want to dismiss her out of hand in light of the circumstances, so I go down to take a look with her later in the day, silently hoping someone else has bought her. No such luck. She is indeed a sweet looking very _Very_ young sow (~10oz, ~3 weeks old). Who of course sneezes as I'm looking at her. And again twice more in the next minute. Shoot.

Well, I can leave her there, in which case she'll likely infect her (apparently uninfected, non-sneezing) cage-mates, I can tell them, and best case scenario they euthanize her, worst case scenario they do nothing. Or I can buy her and try to fix her.

So now I'm a 3-pig family. Little pig is installed in a quarantine cage and I take her to one of my two cavy-savvy vets in the morning for ABX. Bactrim initially, switching to Baytril a couple of days later when the Bactrim doesn't seem to be doing much. So far so good. Then 5 days after purchase I'm holding her listening to her breathing when I feel a lump on one side of her throat. Uh oh. Back to the vet the next day (different vet, also cavy-savvy, some good choices in Houston) and by this time there are two lymph nodes up on the other side of her neck and the first one is getting _big_. Bad news, not looking good. She's too young for this nonsense. Anyway, we put her on Chloramphenicol in addition to the Baytril, but not expecting much. I go home and resolve to give little pig the best end-of-life experience I can (I work largely from home so she spent most her first month either on my tummy or in her cage right beside me). Turns out she's got ringworm all over one side of her face as well. Mad as hell at PetSmart. We name her Penny and I explain to the kids (4 & 6) that Penny may not be living with us for very long because she's very sick.

So, to cut the rest of the story a bit short, 5 weeks of Chloramphenicol and BeneBac (gel type, in the big white syringe, 3 of them in total) and the lymph nodes were all down to either undetectable or tiny, lotrimin sorted out the ringworm (though that was its own battle) and the Baytril sorted out the URI, she's been off the antibiotics for 2 weeks and you've never met a happier or livelier guinea pig. She weighs in at ~17oz now (8 weeks on from her original 10oz weigh-in) and is making good progress in getting gently introduced to the rest of the girls. She never stopped eating throughout the process, though she did sometimes seem to produce rather loose poo. Not what I'd describe as diarrhea, not watery or mucous-y, but soft enough that they would get stuck to her feet when she stepped on them, and soft enough that they were hard to pick up without smearing them. At the time I put this down to reasonable gastrointestinal distress brought about by the ABX, but now 2 weeks after discontinuing the Chloramphenicol she's still regularly producing these very soft stools. Sometimes she'll produce nice firm little black 'final' poos, like you'd want/expect, but then she'll turn around an hour later and produce a big smeared clump of super-soft ones. I've tried cutting her fresh greens-intake down to zero, which doesn't seem to make any difference, and she only really likes cilantro anyway. So she's doing this even on a strict diet of KMS Hayloft 3rd cut Timothy and Oxbow juvenile pellets (of which she mostly prefers the hay over the pellets) and I'm unaware of any way to make her diet even _more_ boring.

So, I'm not super-worried about this, she's gaining weight (like a frickin' avalanche since she came off the ABX) and she's lively and happy and full of popcorning and poor behavior (and sitting on my tummy purring happily as I type, and alternately making rather loose poos, eating some of them, treading on the rest and then trying to transfer them to my keyboard in a series of sneak-attacks when I'm not expecting it) and I'm beginning to wonder if she's just a really lazy poo-eater. Are these really just cecotropes that she's not bothering to re-ingest? Hardly seems likely does it?

Neither of my other pigs seemed to suffer from this, maybe the very occasional loose pellet left behind but never much, and usually associated with eating too many greens/fresh veggies. They both seem to have a pretty strict 'no calorie escapes un-re-eaten' rule.

So before I go back and give the vet yet _more_ money, I thought I'd ask the hive-mind here what your opinions might be. Possible parasitic thing? Still has a flora-imbalance? (I have been crumbling up the occasional poo from the big pigs over her pellets, just to see if we can't jump-start her gut better)

I'm all ears, and thanks in advance for your time.


Dermot.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:50 am


My best guess is still has a flora imbalance. Keep on with the Bene-Bac and big-pig-poo, but she may have a sensitive GI for a while.

If you're up for a fight, go to petsfart with those vet bills in your hand and make a stink until they pay you to shut you up. The more folks that do that, the more they will get the message that selling sick, abysmally treated small animals is unacceptable.

I will not judge you for buying her. You took the time to fix her and make her well. Without question you saved her life. Thank you for taking her to a proper vet and caring for her so well.

You could also take some of the soft droppings to your vet in a baggie (don't need to take her, just a sample) and ask them to look at it under a microscope and see if there's any evidence of a parasite or microbe overgrowth.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:31 am


Ditto Talishan. And welcome to Guinea Lynx!

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TheIrishScion

Post   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:54 am


Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.

I will order up a fresh tube of the BeneBac (I just gave her the last of my current stock this morning) and keep that up for a while longer.

What confuses me most is that she's _capable_ of producing 'correct' poo, probably half of what she's making is 'correct' which seems to argue against a systemic problem with her gut flora itself, but who knows. I actually re-weighed her this morning and she clocked in at 18+oz, she's just a hilariously enthusiastic eater, despite being offered nothing more interesting than hay.

Your suggestion to take a poo sample to the vet for microscopy is an excellent one, I hadn't thought of that, and while it's unlikely to be any cheaper it will be a lot easier logistically. If this doesn't resolve fairly soon I'll likely do just that.

As for expressing my displeasure with/to PetSmart, I have little interest in recouping my costs (while it stings a little, we're very fortunate in being far from going hungry), but I do want them to improve their business practices. As someone who buys their ink by the barrel (well, bits by the barrel in my case) I'm nursing a happy little revenge fantasy around sitting down and writing something pithy and embarrassing for the social medias. I think that's realistically about the only way I have to get their corporate attention. Refunds of vet bills at the local level are almost certainly paid out of management discretionary customer satisfaction funds and quite possibly not actually reported to corporate at all since such actions are likely strongly against corporate policy. And the stores likely have very little or no say in their supplier choices. So it is my suspicion that publicly addressing the corporate entity is likely to be more effective.

Do we actually have any detailed information about what breeders they're sourcing their small animals from, or anything else about their process?

Thanks again for your attention.

Dermot.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:09 am


You can start here:

http://www.petsmartcruelty.com/

I warn you, that's not pretty to look at. Rainbow Exotics is still in business, btw.

I will not set foot in either a petno or a petsfart. The ONLY petno I've been in I called the local animal control to, and they investigated. One visit. One time. That should tell you something about how statistically likely abuse, cruelty and neglect are.

The ONLY guinea pig I looked at in our local petsfart had no hay and no water, and did not look active or happy. I asked a worker about her and was told, "Oh yeah, we're just about to do all their water bottles and food."

Yeah. Riiiiiiiight.

As far as soft droppings go -- we have actually had one or two with the normal feces/soft feces/normal feces/soft feces thing. For one, giving her Bene-Bac for a few days helped her quite a bit, before it returned (at least to a degree).

My gut hunch is that she has a GI imbalance due to everything she's been through in her short life. This will likely resolve with good food, proper care, some extra probiotic, and time. OTOH she may retain a tendency to soft stool the rest of her life. If that's the case, she'll probably need to be fed smaller amounts of greens more frequently than your other pigs, to keep her from having her feet constantly covered in poo.

We've had a couple like this, and we got very good at gently soaking dried poo off feet in warm water. ;-)

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TheIrishScion

Post   » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:01 am


<sigh> I shall give that link a miss for the time being then, don't entirely feel up to it tonight.

That's a little disheartening to hear that the soft feces may be a chronic thing. Indeed you're right though, she's been through a fairly ridiculous amount in her short little life. I just rather assume/hoped that the digestive stuff would level out as soon as we stopped the antibiotics, but it doesn't seem to have, I'm actually suspicious that it might be getting a little worse. However, examining the actual timeline, I stopped the probiotics a day or two after I stopped the ABX, which could very well be related.

So the critical path now seems to be;
1: Order fresh tube of BeneBac (done, here in a couple of days) and give her some leftover powdered stuff in the mean time.
2: Complete the intra-cage bridge, allowing her to spend time with the big pigs whenever she wants (and hopefully start getting exposed to their healthy flaura-fauna at the same time), but still escape to the safety of her own space in case they get grumpy. I should be able to get that done tomorrow morning.
3: Sounds like it's maybe poop-soup time. Oy vey.
4: I'll probably bite the bullet and bring the vet some of the poo, just to rule out those sort of nasties. In for a penny, in for a pound and all that. :-)

I hope you're right, and I guess I know that she _was_ at least capable of fairly consistently good poo. I'm just a bit worried now.

On the plus side, she doesn't seem to be lacking nutrition, and she's certainly bouncy and cheerful, she's just making a bit of a mess. I guess there are worse ways to be.

Thanks Talishan.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:34 am


If you just bring the vet some of the poo, they should (hopefully) just charge you for the diagnostic (a look under the microscope) vs. an office visit charge.

Most clinics have a line-item for that (the stuff they can do in their office) that includes supplies, the vet's or tech's time, etc. It shouldn't be too much.

Soft feces are generally not a serious problem. Full-on diarrhea (watery, mucous-y stuff) is a serious problem. Softish feces indicate something isn't right, but it's not generally immediately a cause for a real worry and concern. In my experience, anyway.

Keep us posted and good luck to her and to you.

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TheIrishScion

Post   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:47 am


Right, intra-cage bridge is complete, I'm sitting listening to piggy politics right now, we'll see how she does. My two sows (who are very much a pair, though they frequently squabble) are _not_ being terribly welcoming hosts, but I guess the pecking order must be established, not that Penny is putting up the slightest fight, but I guess they have a ritual of sorts to follow. I'm _pissed_ because the whole plan was to sneak her in while she was still a pup. No such luck there. I'm not concerned in the long term, it's just a bit nerve wracking right now.

Sadly no letup on the loose poops, though I think again that she is still producing at least _some_ properly formed harder ones. The poop itself is dark green, fibrous, and not what I would consider malodorous, though it does stick to everything. I'm pretty confident these _are_ just cecotropes so the question would be why she isn't bothering to eat them. Maybe she's producing too many, I don't know how they control what proportion of their diet is diverted to the caecum versus passed straight through. I would have thought it would be largely autonomic but who knows, maybe she's choosing to stuff herself with tasty fresh hay rather than that boring old fermented poo.

Frankly, I think it's time someone developed a guinea pig translator app. Though for mine all it would really ever say is "more veggies please!" and occasionally "bugger off, this is my space" or "help! I can't see you and I'm scared!"

Anyway, back to the business at hand, I've been giving her powdered benebac cut with apple purée since last night, proper in-a-tube version will be here Tuesday night.

Poop soup question; how much poop does one aim to get into her at a go? (Measured in big-pig-poos would be fine) and how often does one aim to do it? Twice daily I imagine. I'm not at all confident that I'll be able to get my hands on any cecotropes but I presume final poo will do at a pinch, so long as it's fresh.

Sorry to keep writing essays, just want to keep folks informed. And it takes my mind off what is otherwise a rather hurry-up-and-wait situation.

I will (unless a magical cure evident a itself) take some poo to the vet this week, but I might not get a chance for a couple of days.

Thanks.

Dermot.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:35 am


Piggy politics can be worse than human. ;-)

I agree with your poo assessment.

The final-pass droppings do still contain some beneficial bacteria as I understand it. Not anywhere near as many as the cecotropes, but some. If it were me I'd take one dropping and dissolve it in some water, then syringe that to Penny. (Delicious! ;-) Shoot for twice a day. When your benebac-in-a-tube arrives, maybe give that once a day and a dissolved dropping once a day. There's no ironclad advice on this -- it's not an exact dosage. Go with what works and what seems to help.

"I don't know how they control what proportion of their diet is diverted to the caecum versus passed straight through. I would have thought it would be largely autonomic but who knows, maybe she's choosing to stuff herself with tasty fresh hay rather than that boring old fermented poo."

This is an extremely interesting question and one I have wondered often myself. It's my understanding (pure speculation on my part, probably) that all food passes through the cecum; emerges as a cecotrope; is reingested, THEN passes through the GI (what part[s] of the GI??) and out as a final pass dropping.

How do their systems "know" "what to do with what material"?

In any event, I still think this may be an ongoing or semi-permanent, semi-persistent intermittent problem, given Penny's background up to now. Hopefully not. Keep going and please keep us posted.

bpatters
And got the T-shirt

Post   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:27 am


My suggestion would be to put the BeneBac in something other than fruit. Sugar can upset GP digestive tracts, and may be undoing some of the good that the BeneBac does.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:00 am


Interestingly, chickens have caecums and pass special stinky piles of poop! (not reingested)

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TheIrishScion

Post   » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:42 am


Captains (still rather soft) log, Star-Date 6/8/15

bpatters, I agree, sugar bad. However, getting piggy to willingly swallow copious quantities of mashed up poo and/or BeneBac takes precedent right now. Bear in mind that she spent 6 weeks taking morning and evening sweetened ABX and BeneBac Plus, so she's reasonably used to a little sweetness. Being off the sugar (and basically everything else) for the last 2 weeks hasn't done a _thing_ to improve her tummy either, quite the opposite it appears.

Also probably worth noting that the apple sauce I'm using is the stupidly expensive unsweetend GoGo Squeeze organic stuff they sell in pouches for over-privileged American children who're too dainty to eat actual apples (such as mine, apparently) so while it's tasty, her ~2cc of ApplePoopSoup isn't really substantively sweeter than just eating apple. With poop in it.

Which brings us to today; Amazon came through and the BeneBac Plus showed up this morning, a day+ early, so I gave her a stout starting dose of that. I spent the day working from home, she spent the day in the General Population in the now twinned cage, and her fellow inmates hazed her fairly unmercifully. Well, I guess it was merciful in that they didn't do it continuously, but gawd they chased her around a bit, my heart broke knowing that I had to let them work out the pecking order themselves, I just want to smack 'em both on the nose, take her out and never let them near her again. Because I'm soft in the head, and I've been hand-rearing her for 2 months. She's _my_ baby dammit! And gawd she squealed about it. She's actually so loud, she gives them pause. You can see them approach her with mal-intent occasionally, and she squeaks so piercingly at them that they stop, sit down all casual like they weren't doing anything in the first place, and then apparently decide it's not worth the noise pollution to carry on.

With all that said, she doesn't seem to be collecting any wounds (and I've been watching/checking her _closely_) so I think (hope) that they've progressed to the point where they're doing the same open-mouth tooth-thump to her that they do to each other when they're feeling political. (have you ever felt that? It's the _strangest_ thing isn't it?) All three spent a _very_ chill and happy 4 hours stretched out on the big leather couches tonight eating cilantro and bell pepper and generally having a pleasant time while we did much the same and caught up on season 2 of Orange is the New Black (how apropos).

So my current Poop Soup recipe consists of left over benebac powder from the sachet that will otherwise go off, apple sauce, and top quality fresh poop (sadly not cecal, they weren't sharing any of that) all mixed up together in a ziploc sandwich bag and administered via a 3cc syringe.

As for poop, she was producing slurry this morning, but by this evening she actually produced vast quantities of reasonably solid black poos, albeit slightly teardrop shaped most of them, and often a bit small. Towards the end of the evening, when she'd filled up with cilantro, she went back to pooping a bit of the green, but not too badly, and much better formed. So I'm choosing to see that as a positive step. She's only been back on the BeneBac 24 hours now, we'll see how we go.

One thing I'm wondering is when it's strategic to give the probiotics to her. It occurs to me that giving her the probiotics on an empty stomach (not an empty empty stomach, but a 5-hours-no-hay empty stomach), followed by a bunch of nice new food would potentially maximize the chances of the probiotics making their way into her cecum and taking up residence. Possibly I'm overthinking the whole thing. It's interesting thought experiment though. Lynx, you might find this diagram helpful; it's of a rabbit, but the two are apparently functionally about identical.
Image
I suspect the guineas have a sphincter at the mouth of the cecum that allows them to bypass it, but please don't ask me to cite that statement right now, I forget where I saw/read it.


At any rate, I'm feeling a bit more hopeful about the whole thing this evening.

Thanks for following along.

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