URGENT-CA-PHS Shelter (Bay Area)

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Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:02 pm

*ignoring antibreeder invective and stories which are exception to the rule*

I didn´t call you a hypocrite, Teresa - I just said it seemed that way from my perspective, but thank you for explaining. From what I gather, you would have preferred the media be more involved with the prior one? Again we disagree, I would rather just get the animals in homes as quickly as possible, but my standards aren´t as stringent as yours - I think a lot of people you deny would be great pet owners. But that´s okay - disagreement is what our country is all about.

"This venom directed towards Teresa is personal." Josephine, I hope you don´t think I was spouting venom when I was honestly asking a question. The venom spouting seems to be more directed at me than Teresa, in fact. I would hate to think there is a forum in America where questioning someone out of curiosity is frowned upon just because the person being questioned is popular.

My questions are answered and I´m satisfied.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:02 pm

You´d have to awfully hungry to eat cavy. There just isn´t much meat on ´em. Kinda like buffalo chicken wings. And like crab legs they´d be an awful lot of work to clean for the return you´d get on them. Still, I understand with shake-n-bake they can be quite palatable.

Martyr seems to be a good word for Teresa. There´s a whole lotta breast beating and "Gosh, aren´t I wonderful for doing this? Poor me. I spend sooooo much time/money/energy on this for just no reward whatsoever..." publicity.

I know and admire some real re-homing groups. Almost any greyhound re-homing agency doesn´t have this personality cult that I see at cavyspirit. They are also much more effective at getting animals into homes. There isn´t the "My way or the highway" attitude there. They make sure the dogs have good homes but they don´t turn people off from the animal in the process. Many (not all) don´t bash breeders or the racing industry. They realize without them there wouldn´t be these animals to know and love.

Y´all manage to shut down breeders there wouldn´t be any pigs in 3-4 years. Y´all seem to love your animals but you want to go out of your way to make it difficult for new people to experience the same pleasure. I had a lady come buy a pig from me this week. She´d been checking the county humane society regularly and not finding any.

Lastly (for now) you might want to be aware of methods of euthanasia. "Etymology: Greek, easy death....the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy" That way when your precious little Snookums prolapses their rectum, develops cecitis or has an unfortunate but not quite fatal experience with a dog late on a Sunday night they don´t have to suffer until Monday morning when you can give them a stressful car ride to the vet for a shot. Leaving them in agony for 8 or 12 hours does not make you a good Piggy Mom

I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:14 pm

A good piggy mom has already discussed the possiblility with her vet and is prepared for it.

I´ve spent more time than I´d ever care to at the 24 hour vet clinic. I wouldn´t let my kids suffer nor would I let my pigs.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:21 pm

Cecitis? That´s a new one on me. Too bad it doesn´t exist.

Last time I checked prolapsed rectums weren´t causes for euthanasia either. Put in a purse-string suture and they´re cured. Not common in cavies or other animals also unless they had severe diarrhea.

No cavies in 3-4 years? That won´t happen of course, since there´s always a breeder or inexperienced pet owner, pet shop, etc. to supply the rescues. There wouldn´t be any need for us if there wasn´t an overpopulation problem, of course.
Last edited by Josephine on Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:24 pm

You´re right, you should be prepared in advance. That´s why I encourage you to learn what you can do to give your animal a quick easy death when necessary.

Nor would I let my kid suffer because of my pigs. My kid will always come first. I can ease a pig out quite humanely without spending a $100 to do it. I see that as taking food out of my family´s mouth. I can think of lots of better things to do with that money.

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Almost Inbred

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:41 pm

Whereas cracking a pig´s skull because he has the wrong markings is the epitome of human kindness.

Get real. You really believe death is a better alternative to temporary pain? Damn. You must go through more pigs than women do pantyhose.

Yet again, another person is using the ´this doesn´t apply to me, so it doesn´t apply to anyone, anywhere´ argument. It´s really not a difficult concept. I don´t understand why people can´t grasp it.

Just because your area does not have a pig population problem in no way affects the population in other areas.

Repeat after me, people. "I am not the center of the universe. What I see/do/experience is not the same as others see/do/experience. There is a world outside my doorstep."

I´m certain Teresa would thank the breeders for the wonderful gift of homeless pigs if she didn´t have so many dropped off on her doorstep. What was the number, Teresa? Something like 500 in the SF Bay area in the past year alone?

She cleans up the messes the breeders and petstores make. I don´t completely agree with her ideology and methods, either, but since I don´t have a rescue, I don´t have the audacity to criticize her for how she runs hers. And if you´re not out there trying to find homes for pigs (and despite what´s going on in your area, there are population problems in other areas), then you really don´t have the basis to criticize her, either.

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Almost Inbred

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:05 pm

And another thing. If living up to the responsibility you chose to accept by bringing animals into this world and into your home means that you cannot live up to your responsibilities to your family, then it is highly irresponsible of you to have animals.

You owe both your family and the animals more than that.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:20 pm

You´d have to awfully hungry to eat cavy. There just isn´t much meat on ´em. Kinda like buffalo chicken wings.
And like crab legs they´d be an awful lot of work to clean for the return you´d get on them.

Well, "nastybreeder" is an excellent moniker for you. Perhaps you should add "Ignorant" to it. Cavies form a staple part of the diet in South America. Certainly in Peru where they are a standard menu item in restaurants and you can buy small bales of hay in the market to feed your stock kept in boxes in your highrise apartment.

And please don´t raise the hackneyed whine about how your kids come first. Duh. But the cold hard fact is that if you have to make a choice between your kids or paying for medical care for animals you brought into the world - what the hell are you doing breeding? You obviously can´t afford it.

Yup, nastybreeder suits you to a tee.

I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:29 pm

My kids and I would fast if it meant having the money to treat one of our animals with respect at the end of their lives. I believe what goes around comes around. In the long run, it has proven true in my life.

Although the emergency vet fee´s haven´t taken food out of our mouths, they did require a sacrifice. I hope one lesson I have taught my children is that doing the right thing usually costs something. Sometimes it´s money; sometimes it´s friendship,popularity whatever.... If they are brave enough to do this, I´ll be a very happy Mom.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:52 pm

Why can´t you have both? Respect and an easy non-veterinary death. What does the vet do that´s so special? You scoop it up and take it on a car ride to the vet (stressful situation). Vet handles it some (more stress). Gives it a shot (ouch! more stress) to relax the muscles to the point the cease to function and it dies of hypoxia.

My way: Place the pig in a box with bedding...seems like another cage. Add some co2, it gets sleepy and sleepier until it gradually passes away from hypoxia. No struggle, no car ride, no needle stick. Same result. Only I don´t have to wait for an appointment time to come around. I´m out in the barn at midnight and find a boar with intense colic in agony. I can deal with it in minutes, can you?

This doesn´t come easily to anyone. Everytime you lose an animal its a sacrifice. It IS a loss! I frequently still cry and cuss over the necessity of it. It doesn´t need to be a monetary sacrifice though.

Put another way, that $100 for the vet could buy a heck of a lot of pig chow.

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Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:05 pm

It doesn´t sound like you have any affection for your animals at all. Boar with intense colic in agony? No sense in trying to treat it, why not just put it out of its misery.

Too many breeder "euthanasias" are anything but.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:13 pm

Thanks, I´m glad you like the screenname. Only I´m not ignorant. I know they eat them in Peru and Bolivia. They´re also important in some religious rites. They tend to grow ´em bigger there though. More worthwhile to eat. I know of someone just left for Boliva today to get a goat project going in Bolivia to improve people´s lives there. She was telling me of a companion project to increase the meat production abilities of cavies as well. ´Coure if you stew ´em you don´t waste as much. If you are really interested in improving the world I can put you in touch with donating to either project.

I never said I´d crack a mis marked animal. It´s easier for me to sell them as pets.

Yup, this is a good one. I suggest we ALL do it, even the rescue folk. Repeat after me, people. "I am not the center of the universe. What I see/do/experience is not the same as others see/do/experience. There is a world outside my doorstep."

Actually, I can afford to both have a family/life and cavies quite easily. I do this by not running the animals to a vet everytime they sneeze. I´ve educated many vets in my practice on cavies. Got tired of paying them for the privilege though. Eventually I noticed that whether I treated them or the vet treated them the outcome was the same. One time I had an abscess lanced. I thought the animal should have been rehydrated as well but the vet insisted he was fine. Took him home and he was dead the next day. I should have stomped my feet harder about it. Live and learn.

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Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:26 pm

I seem to remember some discussion regarding death by Co2 indicating it was a painful method to die (might have been an article on methods of suicide for humans). Humane euthanasias would need a discussion all their own. Most pet owners will not want to be the instrument -- but more knowledge might help them choose or understand the best methods.

Without an autopsy, you would not know what killed your animal. Certainly rehydration wouldn´t hurt but it may have made no difference whatsoever.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:28 pm

Cecitis= inflammation of the caecum. The caecum is part of the digestive tract, but then you knew that Miss Smarty Pants. You could also call it colic. Our vets around here have seen it. They suggest euthanasia for that and for prolapsed rectums. It´s much kinder to the animal. They feel that´s the HUMANE thing to do. I´ve had babies prolapse without diarhea. Not frequently but its happened.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:33 pm

CO2 "can" be somewhat traumatic if too much is administrered too fast. If you do it slowly enough the animal becomes drowsy and then sleepy and then dead. But much less traumatic than living through the night with an intensely painful condition. I can direct you to a website if you like.

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Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:41 pm

Hey, don´t pick on our Miss Smarty Pants!! She certainly doesn´t deserve it!

You´ve labeled yourself a "nastybreeder". What I´d like to know is how nasty are you? Have you read Josephine´s article on what she feels constitutes a responsible breeder? Do you fall far from her definition?

I thought she had alot of insight. Many people here would agree with her definition of a responsible breeder. How do you feel about the responsibility you have toward your "stock"?

Last edited by Lynx on Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:14 pm

My animals have good quality feed, water and bedding. Their barn is safe from predatory animals of all sorts. They have air conditioning in the summer although my own house does not. They have heat in the winter, actually my own house has that too. They all have cavy companions to hang around with. They aren´t handled excessively although many come to the front of the cage to get their heads scratched and take carrots out my hand.

Obviously I have a different perspective on "responsible" than a "rescuer" would. I do agree with the husbandry aspects she mentions. Pretty much seems like she thinks a responsible breeder is one who doesn´t breed. LOL

My definition of responsible would include assuring the animals quality of life at all times. This includes recognizing when the animal has no hope of recovery and having the guts to quickly put it out of its misery. In the same vein I think anyone that spays or neuters a cavy is inflicting needless pain on an animal. I´m appalled at anyone that would recommend that. Buy another cage,for crying out loud! Ranks right up there with people who declaw their cats. I´m hoping there´s a special ring of hell set aside just for them.

I chose the label nastybreeder with my tongue firmly in my cheek and to beat the rest of y´all to it. Miss Smarty Pants has already displayed her label tonight. How, ´bout you Lynx? Are you really the Heartless Dictator? So far you seem one of the most reasonable....

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Almost Inbred

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:09 am

What with the comments about eating pigs and calling us unreasonable, it´s fairly obvious you´d much rather bait us than respond to any actual points we bring up.

So point blank. Do you or do you not recognize that, in general, animal overpopulation is a problem?

You´ve changed your tune from thinking death is the appropriate action for an ...unfortunate but not quite fatal experience... to only when ...recognizing when the animal has no hope of recovery...

Which is it? Am I cruel for not putting my St.John down 2 years ago when he had grand mal seizures the first 2 months of his life? Am I a bitch for not euthanizing Al when he had to endure painful, nightly cleansing sessions for 2 weeks when he had an abscess?

I know very little about pig medicine, but isn´t colic the same thing as bloat? Doesn´t a little Reglan usually fix that right up? Jeez. If we all thought like you, half the pigs on this board would be dead now instead of living out their happy little lives.

And speaking of happy little lives, I wonder if Pinta´s neutered boars--who live free-range, have the run of the house, and spend ample play time outside with her sows--are markedly unhappier than your intact boars who are stuck in cages, day in and day out.

I think the real difference between us here is that we give the same respect to animals as we do to humans. You do not. From what you write, it´s quite apparent that you use your animals for your own enjoyment, and you measure the care you give them on a return-on-investment basis.

They don´t have air conditioning because you´re so giving and worried about their comfort. They have a/c because without it they would probably die from heat exhaustion, thus greatly diminishing your pleasure in them.

You don´t provide adequate medical care because the cost outweighs the pig´s worth. It´s a lie to claim it´s because the pig is in pain, and you don´t want it to suffer for even a short amount of time.

If you truly believed that pain felt either temporarily or for an uncertain amount of time was unacceptable in a living creature, then you´d shoot your kid in the head the first time s/he broke an arm or had a painful, undiagnosed condition.


Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:19 am

Colic is not bloat, if it were so easy to cure so many horses wouldn´t be euthanised because of colic.

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For the love of my girls!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:27 am

I am posting before I read all of the above post in totality, so excuse me if I ask something that is already answered above. WHY am I posting in such a rush? Because I am OUTRAGED! On MANY points.

Pinta is right on target, and beat me to the punch, but I will say it anyway... "Nastybreeder" suits you to a "T!" Several of us posted for the first time on this thread after reading that a breeder eats her culls. OBVIOUSLY we were upset. How can you be so insensitive to mention that "they can be quite palatable with Shake and Bake?" That´s just mean.

Again, I agree with Pinta, that of course... DUH... my kids come first. Of course.

I for one, don´t even want to know how to "kill" my sick pet. I want to know how to get them care when they need it. WHENEVER they need it. But, I do not have to have supplies on hand to do it myself. I don´t even want to think about it. I had my beloved Taffy put down last Fall. she was suffering terribly and it was the humane thing to do in MY opinion. And it DID NOT cost $100 even for an emergency visit with treatment. I knew she was dying all the way to the vet. I guess I could have put her in a box and gone shopping. She was so sick, she wouldn´t have needed anything else.

Lynx´s "label" is very tongue-in-cheek because she is among FRIENDS who know it is not true. Yours, however, appears to be true on several fronts. Josephine has the right label... it appears that you do too.

As for Teresa being a martyr, get lost. The hell she has seen gives her the right to have any "standards" she wants. ANY. Amazing that we have found 100´s of people who qualify. She can ask for WHATEVER she wants. She gets her pigs placed or keeps trying until she does. If people get turned off in the process it´s because they weren´t willing to give the pigs the care they deserve. They want the easy way out. Those are the people who wind up leaving pigs "here and there."
Those are the pigs Teresa gets calls to take every day. As far as Teresa getting special treatment because she is "popular" that´s a crock. We all respect the work that Teresa is doing. She has many friends. She has many cavy friends. Most of those people post on ths forum. We support her work. Most of us even like her (LOL Teresa!) HOW can you NOT respect her work. She has a way with cavies. I have seen her pick up more that just a few scared, injured or traumatized pigs. They calm in her arms. She has a gift.

I hope you don´t stay on the forum long. Unlike others, I don´t enjoy this type of "debate" or conversation. Again, I think it is mean.

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